Rep: Mixed Homosexual Showers OK, Heterosexual Showers Not
Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA), was recently asked some questions about the logistics of repealing DADT. Frank dismissed concerns over homosexuals showering with straight members of the military as a “silly issue.”
On the other hand, when asked if males and females should be able to shower together, he said “No, that would disrupt people.”
The implication, of course, is that same-gender sexuality is nothing at all like heterosexuality. But hasn’t the debate on homosexuality in America been predicated on the fact there’s no difference?
The Working Group’s report has already advised against separate facilities because they would be a “logistical nightmare.”
A video of the question and answer can be seen here.
Rep. Frank does have a point: there was a gay guy on my high school swim team, and it never really bothered any of us. Yeah, he didn’t have any friends on the team, but we didn’t mind showering with him. Of course, he always left his speedo on. The rest of us were comfortable showering naked around him.
Most men and women are comfortable with their sexual orientation. Most straight people aren’t aware there are gays showering with them, and if they suspected, my experience is they wouldn’t say a thing. The Rambo types might try to “bow up” but risks problems of there own making.
The percentage of a gay service member offending a straight service member is so small a magnifying glass would be useless. The “straights” are safe…you can keep boys and girls separate, it won’t offend anyone at all!
Nathan,
The point you concede to Rep. Frank has never been in question. The question is why not allow co-gender showers if co-sexual showers are already ok.
Carmine,
If everyone’s so comfortable, why do we still have facilities segregated by gender? You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Genders are kept separate because of a couple of old taboos. Firstly there is the old idea of women as property. Secondly there is the idea of women as weaker than men; if men are allowed near naked women, then the men will rape the women and the weak women won’t be able to stop them. Are straight marines weaker than gay ones?
Don,
So old taboos about homosexuality are worthy of change, but old taboos about gender are not? Apparently you think that the old concept of women as property and as the weaker partner are good reasons for segregation.
I think there is a much simpler and more valid reason for separation: women are different from men. Women aren’t ‘weaker’ than men (maybe physically, but not in character).
No. I never said they were good reasons.
Don,
Your opposition to segregating homosexuals and acceptance of segregating women and men implies you think those reasons are good. In fact you accept the idea that women are weaker so readily that you are willing to use it as ammunition on why integrating homosexuals is not a problem. So what is it: do you want to insult women, straight marines or both at the same time?
I never said I accept segregating women and men. Seriously, you need to read what people type before you comment. OK?
Don,
You implied that it was a good thing. If you don’t think that men and women should be segregated, then say it. Otherwise, I’ll go off the logical conclusions of your previous comments. Also, for the record, do you think that women are weak?
You are welcome to conclude whatever you like. I have expressed no opinion on wether men and women should be segregated. I also said nothing about wether women are weak. I spoke about the IDEA that women are weak.
Don,
Fair enough on the segregation, but if women aren’t weak, then you can’t use that idea as ammunition on integrating homosexuals. Either you agree with the idea or you can’t use it to support your argument (ref your question in post #4).
I have not put forward an argument. I have not said I am in favour or opposed to anything on this topic. I am simply explaining WHY something is considered taboo.
Don,
Make a stand!
If all you do is ‘explain’ then you sound like a professor who doesn’t know the subject matter and wants to sound smart by asking questions and making other people answer. Of course, you could make a good politician: say something insulting, form an accusing question based on those insults, then back-pedal and say that you were just posting ideas, not arguments.
There are those who ‘do’ and those who ‘teach.’ Which are you?
And yet again you try to turn it into a conversation about me. And again you fail as I have no desire to discuss myself with you.
JD — they are comfortable with the fact they are straight. They are not worried about being “converted” if the gays are in the shower with them. Some will be flattered, some disgusted and some will just ignore them altogether.
I disagree with Donalbain that gender separation is from “old Taboos”; it is logical to maintain them to respect their right of privacy. I also believe everyone should have privacy when naked.
This issue isn’t about men and women showering together, its only about gays allowing to serve openly in the military. Why make this into something it is not?
Carmine,
What’s your stand on allowing open homosexuals to shower with heterosexuals? And how is that stand logically coherent with the right to privacy?
Dealer..
For one thing I believe this debate has gotten very out of hand. In my opinion there is less than a 1% chance of Homo/Hereto showering would be an issues. Likewise, there is a less than a 1% chance of a military member having a problem showering with a gay person…in my opinion.
I also believe there is a distinct difference between open homosexuals showering with heterosexuals and separate gender showering. I didn’t say we all have privacy, but we should have a right to privacy. Military persons “usually” have some privacy, but not always and sometimes not practical in certain situations. I’ve even heard of situations when the straight guys told the gay guy(s) to wait to shower until they were done or the gays went first…compromise I guess.
I personally have been “exposed” in open showers a very short time when I was younger. I would not voluntarily do so today (not a pretty sight mind you). But if I had no choice, because I was fighting a war or exposed to poisonous chemicals then I’d have to swallow my pride.
Just because we allow gays to serve openly doesn’t mean that equals boy/girl community showers…two entirely different issues! I’m not opposed to this, but no reason to change this just to change.
The best we can do in the military is give each member their right to privacy whenever possible. When its not possible, we deal with it.